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Author Topic: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
NaturalEnt-
rust
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 275
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: July 27, 2012, 03:14
Quote

I would suggest that the suggested approach
in the article has no chance of being addressed any time soon,

Candol, how do you know this part? AFAIK it is already
supported by both US and Swedish goverment and I trust
that EU will support it too.

Religions due to their known ability to build social capital
are supported by money. Tax reduction and so on.

What exactly in that text are your that pessimistic about?

Candol
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 717
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: July 27, 2012, 07:30
Quote

That the culture of america will change from its current direction - matierialistic, individualistic, lost and confused.

Australia is very similar but we don't have the level of violence i understand. And we are more secular. There are fewer people here too which i think also makes a difference to social pressures.

I mean we can't blame this massacre on the economy.

NaturalEnt-
rust
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 275
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: July 28, 2012, 03:33
Quote

Candol, seen from that perspective you do there
then I fully agree with you that it sounds far fetched
any such change would take place.

US life style is materialistic in the sense of consumerism.
Individualism is very much in vogue yes. and I don't know
about how lost or confused they may be. I know that I am
very much lost and confused :)

But was that really what that author had in mind writing his text?
We have to ask him then. What could have been on his mind. The intention?

Tom Alan
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 115
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: July 30, 2012, 08:59
Quote

There's a rational proposal for reducing violence, and I find it sad that I've only heard it twice. Strangely, both sources have been humorists -- comedian Chris Rock and Jean Shepherd, who wrote and narrated the holiday classic "A Christmas Story." Control bullets. Nobody needs more than a few rounds to fend off home invasion. Only crooks need a steady supply.

I wish there were a more humane way to control the deer population, but it seems that hunting will continue to be a necessary evil. Where I live, car accidents involving deer are frequent and may involve human fatalities.

But it doesn't seem that the gun lobby is much interested in logic. If there is a rationale for allowing the sale of assault rifles, I don't see it.

Candol
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 717
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: July 30, 2012, 09:25
Quote

I wish there were a more humane way to control the deer population, but it seems that hunting will continue to be a necessary evil. Where I live, car accidents involving deer are frequent and may involve human fatalities.

This is a human-centric attitude towards deer. Ie man is the most important creature on the planet so its ok to kill other creatures because they are getting in our way. Are deer native to America. It would be better if people were forced to drive more slowly at night (if that's when the deer are on the roads)

We have a similar thing in Australia with kangaroos. Not that they cause so many fatalities but the cattle people don't like having so many eating the grass. I wish they'd reduce night time road speeds here too. If i'm driving at night, i drive no faster than 80 and if possible only about 65kph. Even at 80 you usually have time to avoid most accidents and i think roos are faster than deer.

I heard it on a tv show tonight that here in Australia 50% of homicides are the result of domestic violence. I was watching a show where in WA two women were killed by husbands and although there had been many many warnings, the police did nothing. They appear not to take any of the warnings seriously over there. We just had a family killed yesterday parents and a son and it looks like the other son did it. Of course because of our gun laws, all but one of these deaths were stabbings. The other might have been a heavy blow to the head.

Tom Alan
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 115
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: July 30, 2012, 09:51
Quote

Quote from Candol on July 30, 2012, 09:25

I wish there were a more humane way to control the deer population, but it seems that hunting will continue to be a necessary evil. Where I live, car accidents involving deer are frequent and may involve human fatalities.

This is a human-centric attitude towards deer.

Is it not obvious that, in a deer-related car accident with human fatality, the deer also dies? Is it not also obvious that, whereas families of deer do not collide with cars, individual deer may collide with cars containing human families?

The context of this quotation is a post in which I discuss methods of reducing violence.

Candol
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 717
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: July 31, 2012, 04:34
Quote

I think its a better and more buddhist solution to reduce the speed limit.

David.M
Grasshopper
Posts: 7
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: July 31, 2012, 13:56
Quote

Two quick points.
ONE: David Loy has some excellent dharma talks concerning the institutionalizing of the three poisons by modern western nations. The Gun Lobby (institutional anger/greed) is a part of this.

TWO: Where I live many families take deer for food, not convenience, not for trophies, but to feed their families. When two adults working full time cannot support a family, we have bigger problems than the size of the deer herd or speed limits.

Safe Home....dave

shibyman
Warming up
Posts: 38
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: September 4, 2012, 15:10
Quote

Guns are not issue, nor are the laws regarding guns...its people. People in this country tend to be more violent then other democracies. It doesnt matter if you were to ban guns of any type. People would still commit murder on a mass scale. Guns do make it a little easier, but where there is a will there is way. If you don't think so your are rather in the dark on how easy it is to build bombs, and they are much easier to employ then a direct assualt with a firearm. The guy could have had a sword and using tear gas,as he did, still would have mortally wounded many people. People also tend to forget the criminal element. Weed is illegal( for the most part ) in the U.S....does that stop people from using it? No, not even close. Even if the U.S. enacted a country wide ban on guns...who would enforce it??? Our military can't be used for such actions and police units are not equipt to deal with enforcing a law on that wide of a scale. Can anyone even imagine trying to deal with just Texas, not to mention the 49 other states. If if you managed to take by force all the legaly owned guns...what about all the illegal guns and what about all the people who know how to manufacture guns, that will still do so only illegally. It's not as easy as just passing a law. Saying that guns should all just be done away with is unrealistic. I get where your coming from but it isn't the world we live in. I don't own guns btw. I live in a safe town and do not feel the need to carry a firearm or keep one in my home. If for some reason i lived in a dangerous city (insert any high crime city in U.S.)I probably would have a gun and like that I have the right to choose whats best for my families saftey. Police cannot possibly respond to every situation and cannot be relied on for protection at all times.
I disagree that the incidents would be less often if guns were illegal. I wish it were that easy but im affraid there are other issues such as low education standards and wide spread religious belief that far more contribute to violence than guns do.

Candol
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 717
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: September 4, 2012, 16:15
Quote

Shibyman, I'm from Australia. In about 1996 we had a big massacre and the government stepped in and got rid of the guns. So it is possible but only if the people support it in general. Of course there will be pockets of resistance but that's where law enforcement comes in. Of course we haven't had any massacres since then either. From over here it looks like you are all in denial. And while i haven't spent much time in America, there are plenty of people here who have and who report on it.

shibyman
Warming up
Posts: 38
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: September 5, 2012, 09:42
Quote

The culture in America is not the same in Australia. It may have worked in your country but it's like comparing apples to oranges. The pockets of resistance in Australia, would be large, well armed and extremely motivated militias in America, and, there is no way police can handle that. Sure our Army could probably do it...but at what expence? How many people would die in such a case? The average American just will not accept their guns to be taken. I'm not saying they are 100% right on the topic, but its reality.

I looked up Australias gun laws...it doesn't appear to me that they all got taken away. My info could be wrong since its on the net but didn't they just take away certain types of guns? There actually was a massacre btw, an arson fire that killed 15 in the Childers Palace fire.
I dont support the NRA and I don't support civilains owning any type of gun. Assault weapons such as high capacity assualt rifles and full automatic guns were not the intent of the freedom to bear arms. Out of all the issues America faces gun control is not a priority to me. Educating people to make choices for themselves seems much more feasible than forceably taking guns away. If the police or army where to try to take americans guns away, i think more would die in that attempt then in all the gun related massacres america has had. I say this because ive read what the NRA publishes and I personally know people who would not give up their guns without a fight. I don't agree with such blind ingnorance but I would hate to see such a battle take place. In time I'm sure laws will be become more restrictive and I do vote to further restrict gun ownership when I can...i just dont tell my gun owner friends :)

mufi
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 463
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: September 5, 2012, 16:06
Quote

It's an empirical question whether or not gun laws help to reduce gun violence, and I claim no expertise on the matter.

That said, of course guns don't commit crimes on their own.(Does anyone really claim otherwise?) But if there's a possibility that certain gun laws can help to reduce gun crimes (e.g. as an aid to the police patrolling "high-crime places at high-risk times"*), then I find it hard to object to them.

And, of course, even that won't prevent all such violent crimes, the cause of which is complex (although it appears to correlate with inequality**).

* from this recent systematic review:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcampbellcollaboration.org%2Flib%2Fdownload%2F2241%2F&ei=adRHUMPYJ4uK0QGF1YDACA&usg=AFQjCNEcKtbXdMwZwLvIadnPkagLIdszyA&sig2=kBvjGhOrUP-4LjvE0OrtpQ&cad=rja

** see The Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone:

http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resource/the-spirit-level

Candol
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 717
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: September 5, 2012, 19:20
Quote

I don't think the childers fire was a massacre if I recall correctly. The aim of the fire was not to kill people even though that was the outcome.

Yes the gun laws in Australia were not about confiscating all guns but i couldn't remember the details so i didn't try to clarify it.

Candol
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 717
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: September 6, 2012, 02:26
Quote

I had a quote to support that point of view but i've lost it and this computer i'm using is so badly set up its not easy to find it again. So if you want to read what i read, go to murderpedia and look up richard long who i think was the guy who set the place on fire.

People were killed because the escape routes were inadequate and there were no smoke alarms.

shibyman
Warming up
Posts: 38
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Post Re: The gun lobby should take some responsibility for this
on: September 6, 2012, 07:37
Quote

It was listed as a massacre. What person sets fire to a building that doesnt realize people will at least have a greater chance of being killed by the smoke or flames? Even if he was targeting just one person he had to know more could be killed. My point was large amounts of people die in attacks like that without the use of firearms and that just because the guns are gone it wont stop acts like that. That said..i do see owning a gun as a privlidge more than a right. There are plenty of people in the US that should not have a gun based on their IQ alone. I am for strict laws concerning guns and A LOT of government oversight to help ensure their proper use i.e. hunting, target shooting and self-defence.

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