Discussions

nyali, you could try emailing Rinchin at khacho yulo ling buddhist centre here in Australia. She has done a couple of retreats with Stephen batchelor and as a grounded Australian, she could probably offer you some advice that you might find helpful. Also or even better you could write to stephen batchelor via his website.

I'm not an old hand in buddhism and i've been secular practitioner from the beginning but i have been to tibetan buddhist centres and have read a bit about them. I would say that secular buddhism doesn't put much emphasis on lineage. Lineage is a way of gatekeeping but people who do not have lineage could also be good teachers. The matter is what do you expect or need from a teacher. I think its better to have many teachers. Of course the more advanced you are in your practice the more you need a highly experienced teacher. AGain there are many of these all over the world and you can find them on the internet. But you might also find that a certain point, you have to become your own teacher just as the buddha did.

If you don't ask the questions because of some misguided idea that you don't want the opinion of someone you can't have a personal relationship with then you are only limiting your options and not finding answer that might be helpful. If you have a more open mind about it, you will probably advance. If you reject people as being helpful because you can't meet them, then you have to live with the consequences of that choice also.

I don't think secular buddhism has purification rituals. While i understand the benefit of confession, these things are not in the scope of secular practice because it gives authority and power to others. Its also unnecessary when you have compassion and loving kindness practices for yourself. I don't know if that answers your question.

Nayeli, a couple of thoughts on your post. First and foremost, thank you for being so open and honest in sharing your background and questions. The podcast was started at the behest of a loved one in Mexico

The question of lineage and teachers came up during the Buddhist Geeks conference, just the other day. And the answer was a very good one: continuing to check into several, not necessarily going with the first one you find. Find what works best for *you*. What is a great teacher for many people may not be good for you.

Understanding that you have a limit, however, of a variety of potential teachers in your area, you may want to consider some online options and CD's. Join some discussion groups, and get an idea of what's available to you -- and remember, you don't have to make a permanent decision, you do have the ability to grow in your practice, and sometimes that may mean growing to a different group or teacher.

There are a couple of themes that I have no clarity. I'd like to share to know other's ideas to widen my perspective. I think is important to adress this issues with a background, in this case of my cultural and Buddhist background, otherway the point is lost.

Traditionally the Dharma is teached, shared, pass on from teacher to student. this gives rise to lineage. this makes perfect sense in a world where the communication technologies we have today were nonexistent, so much that tradition gives substancial wight to the importance of the teacher. I do believe a teacher is important, but now we are facing different times.

Let's make some numbers: how many reliable teachers could out there be? how many interested students could out ther be? (are this 1 to 1? 1 to 10? 1 to 1000?) how many students can a teacher reach? and guide? how can you build your practice with the help of a teacher that is a scarce resource? So what happens? do you keep holding on to the emphasis on finding a teacher for you? --and with the help of God pray to put him on your path? **light sarcastic tone--

So, I am a serious practitioner (... I have to add another light sarcastic tone to this statement )I've been studing Buddhism and practicing meditation for a number of years. My principal influence has been tibetan Buddhism. Not the only one. (by the way, I have been on retreat with Stephen and Martine Batchelor in 3 occasions here in Mexico) Tibetan Buddhism is hard core with this theme of the importance of the teacher and lineage. It's a little uncomfortable to me.

I have known of many western students that are more like a fan to a teacher. but I don't see a really close and helpful relationship. they as well might be the number 8556.6 student to that teacher, so when this person faces a question he might write to the adorable teacher to receive a general response. of course.

So... Mexico is a catholic country. Family values are very important. what does that mean? We have a natural tendency to relate to teachers and parens is a more venerated way. this has it's pro and cons. we don't question that much. I am a rebbel. I question a lot but with respect.

Today I am writing to someone who would read me very far away. I probaly will never meet you.

I find teachings and influence from all over the world.

I find questioning that resonate with mine from the other side of the planet. and in another language.

In Mexico there are not many, as I said before, "reputed teachers" we at best have branches. so how do you resolve this?
My question is. you... secular Buddhist... do you have a teacher? how is your relatiotioship? share with me. I wonder.

Today with the internet I can hear my most beloved teachers on line over and over. Theravadins, Buddhist, Secular, and Zen. I am no stuck with one tradition. this is a big difference from when the Dharma was taught from teacher to student. yes? but do I build a relationship with them? I don't think I do.

So how do you build a serious practice, how you adress your personal questions? peer to peer. so here I am.

Till now, I've been kind of passive with the secular Buddhist site, listening and reading, not letting my voice sound. I am attempting an interactive approach. maybe I can find an eco.

Linda. I am half reading your post. thanks.
Ted. thank you for the kindness

Nayeli, first welcome to the site and forums! You have a beautiful name, btw:-)

I started my journey in Buddhism with a set of Tibetan Buddhism DVDs I discovered online after listening to Robina Courtin online somewhere. I was intrigued by Buddhism, especially all of the talk of investigation of the mind. I took a couple of courses in person with the same organization, and I had two Buddhist nuns as my teachers. After two to three years of studying Tibetan Buddhism, I felt like there was a little bit of Buddhism in a religion I was not comfortable with.

I discovered then that there were several Theravada and Zen sanghas near me. I spent some time going back and forth, learning a lot from both. I then settled on the South Bay Insight Meditation center, and went to that sangha with teacher Shaila Catherine, who I still consider my teacher, even though I have veered off into secular Buddhism and don't go to the sangha often.

It is very hard to find a teacher to work one on one with. That is common to Asian cultures, and very difficult in the US culture. Shaila was awesome about working with her students in person and via phone calls, but most teachers here in the US don't offer that one on one action.

One of my favorite sanghas was the one I had in Second Life (a 3D software virtual world), where I had joined in with the Skeptical Buddhists. They are still my sangha, and participate actively in this site. We've just moved computing platforms:-)

I continue to listen to talks online, as I have all along, and occasionally I visit nearby sanghas in person. Books are useful as well, but I still get my main support from the folks I met in SL, and now interact regularly with them through this site, email, phone, and in person.

As for purification . . . I have no such beliefs. I don't think we can purify karma, and I don't believe karma in the traditional sense. Instead I see karma as the actions we take, our intentions, and the consequences of those actions. The latter we have no control over, therefore best to be skillful in our actions. Even then consequences can be unexpected or unapparent.

Thank you so much for sharing, and asking questions!

Wow! thanks for that all of you
I have some comments. but I am a slow writer (it took me over 3hrs to write the one before... lol my left side of the brain may be slower with translating into language) will be back in a couple of days.

Linda: thanks for sharing, yes that seems to sound familiar, I spend several hours a day listening to podcasts, and reading. sometimes I may not be reading anything particular Buddhist, but I find some echoes from what the buddha taught, or intresting insights that help deepen my practice. I find this very enjoyable. Is when I read Buddhist books that the question of the need of a teacher arrises.then I feel lame.
Dana: thank you for your welcome. this is actually the first forum that I participate in, so I guess this really makes me a grasshopper. I've had the chance to know Robina Courtin in person, and she does leave a hard inpression! I mean both powerful and loving. I guess this times, in this era the relationship with a teacher one to one is not very realistic, one has to try other roads. this always leaves me questioning the validity. I like reading Thich Nhat Hanh a lot, I enjoy the poetic way. I feel he's simple words go very deep. I feel very inspired by him and I consider him a teacher. He is an often resource for many questions, but I wonder how bias am I in choosing the words, the senteces that best suit me. that bear out my own perspective. when one learns about the brain and how much we seek and find the answers that confirms our own point of view, I begin to doubt. do you as a skeptic think you may be missing out something that a believer has reached? I consider myself often as a skeptic too, but I also find myself wondering about the magic. the power of magic. (and FYI thanks for complimentig my name. In means "I love you" in the zapoteco langage of native mexicans)-- after all Mexico has a lot of magic.
Candol: yes I agree, good examples to follow are the best. that is one of the things a teacher got to be. no so easy to find though.
Mark: I agree with you too. lineage is a valuable treasure. both as heir and legacy. how can we go through and beyond the hierarchical powers but still regard them? I find this difficult. one thing is the ideal democracy, and other the real one. power and hierarchy always sets foot. how can we take the best of both? I sense this has to do a lot with honorability. find a way to build an honorable and open society begining with it's members. not easy, not even for oneself. reaching utopian.
And all this is just with the lineage/teacher...
Very enrinching your shares. thank you all.

Nayeli, my apologies for being distracted and not getting back to you sooner, but I see this growing community has been actively involved. One of the wonderful benefits to having others to share in our experiences, thoughts, and struggles.

Ah, yes, you explained it very well, and I appreciate you taking the time to do so. As Mark said, our ties to lineage bring with them the good and the bad that have always been. But in our contemporary culture, we tend to question more, to not turn a blind eye to some of the problems we see, but rather we work to change them for the better. It is what frustrates many Catholics I know with recent abuse problems in the church, that the mis-handling of these very real issues is making people lose their faith in their faith, not just their church or a person who abused their authority over others.

There are many reasons we may be seeing a growing interest in changing that model, of a single leader or teacher providing the instruction for others. Our culture is becoming more willing to question. Digital technology and social networking in particular is allowing wonderfully talented people who don't happen to have chosen the vocation of teacher to share their thoughts worldwide, and actively respond to others. And with Buddhism in particular, where the practice is very clearly dependent on one's own efforts and *not* through the agency of a divine representative on Earth, the dependence on religious institutions is weakened.

Of course, we do still need guidance. It not only points us in the right direction, it gives us the encouragement we need to take the steps on the path, and provides the feedback to let us know when we're straying. In Buddhism we have the concept of the kalyana mitta, the "spiritual friend", a peer with whom we share our journey. That's what we're exploring, how we can support one another, ask questions, and share what we've found in our own daily practice. This isn't a replacement for the help of a teacher, it is a critical part of ongoing practice. And the friendship part is always nice!

Our concept of teacher is, I think, changing from a specific lineage holder to something more open, more based on experience and demonstrable proficiency. I've seen too many (for example) zen priests who got their robes for the "cool factor" rather than any actual skill, who are poor practitioners and worse teachers. And we have that in our peer to peer groups, too! We also have good teachers, and good fellow meditators. So how do we decide, how do we determine who might be a good person to listen to?

The Buddha's advice was pretty clear: look at what they say, look at what they do. Do they speak and act with compassion, with understanding, with equanimity and joy? Or something else? We can find that there are many teachers to be found, and our need for one and only one, diminishes as we can find value in diversity. The choices can be confusing, yes, but this basic guideline can help.

I have had several teachers, and still do, over the years. There is great value in investing the time with a teacher who learns about you, gets to know you, and can see through our own misperceptions about ourselves. Having more than one brings with it additional perspectives, and I've found that very helpful, too, as they see different aspects of my practice that need attention. It also reduces the risk one takes in *only* seeing teachers in everyone we meet -- sure, there are things we can learn from each other and situations, but they are not always focussed on our progress, and a teacher is.

Can we rely on each other to be "good" teachers, and help guide us? Or do we need a single person to provide that insight? Perhaps a balance can be found as we loosen the bonds of hierarchical power of traditional settings, but carry the idea of commitment to our kalyana mittas, and sincerely do our best to help each other. Is this enough? I honestly don't know, but I do suspect that those who do provide good insights and guidance will become self evident and grow into teaching roles, however informally that may be.