Discussions

I thought that was part of the territory of jhana practice more than straight mindfulness practice. (Writing this while the link is warming up.) Jack Kornfield writes plenty about the difficulties that can arise.

If there had been a name on the speaker one could have googled for the link.
Is it maybe Willoughby Britton or whom are referred to?

Here is another important Vimeo video
from same or similar presentation
at Brown Uni. 2010.

Britton introduce this guy
Chris Oates – Adverse Effects of Meditation
http://vimeo.com/28170574
I have listen to her linked above but
she talked too fast for my poor brain.

I apologize to those of you who couldn't view the video. I'm glad someone found a way to post the link in a better way. The whole video shows up for me. Not sure why.

I agree, Candol. All teachers I've had warned to go into meditation slowly and to work with a teacher. At first I thought they were saying that so they'd have students, but over time, the more deeply I dug into my ouw mental space, I realized how difficult this could be for some. My mom is mentally ill and it absolutely scared her, and she'd just zone out.

For myself I still don't like it. However, I have found so much value in it that I still do it, although I meditate less than I used to. But I really have to force myself. I still have strong attachment to information in and information out. Boredom tortures me, and I still haven't been able to get under it, except for one time on my jhana retreat to let it go!

When people say they fail at meditation, I can't help thinking maybe they experience what I go through each time, constant noise up there, intense boredom, but that is what I'm mindful of, that is the state of this busy brain. Some days it's more quiet. On rare occasion I get some space between thoughts, and then I get even more bored, lol.

Just my wild idea.
What if the failure
sometimes is the body
protecting me from
forcing it to do
something that is not healthy?

And those that go to a retreat
and end up harmed did not listen
to the body and trusting the
luring advertising that meditation
do good things for your health.

Sometimes TV shows has a warning
Don't do this at home and then
they show people who barely survive
and all the young boys rush out to
do the life dangerous stunts.

Now I can not be sure because
they talk too fast for me to grasp.

W.Britton and C.Oates in one of the
Vimeo videos from 2010 on adverse
effects in the end when the public
asked questions as I remember both
Oates and Britton confirmed my take
that Buddhist words are not used as
they usually are.

Fear and Terror where not emotions
but misunderstanding of impermanent
effect of the meditation.

My poor memory may have misrepresented
what they actually said. Acoustic not
perfect and I am not used to the accent
either.

I just wild guess. What if the body
is so aware that it realize that to
do Buddhist meditation would be harmful
and thus my body resist doing it and
that manifest itself as me not getting
how one do Metta. I only sense a small
or vague or faint or ??? sense of that
there is some inconsistency in the logic
of what the purpose of doing Metta is.

I trust all of us are different. Maybe
I only get motivated to do things
if I get what it is for and how it works?

Take the neighbor that I feel irritated
with or how to say it. What is suppose
to be the mechanism or the explanation
for the process of including that neighbor
in a loving kindness?

When I failed to reach the former workmate
that has shown interest in Buddhist meditation
based on what she had heard at courses at work
I came to think about a Secular Humanist I
knew well enough to make a phone call to.

She is skeptical of woo about alternative
medicine and she is a secular naturalist etc.

I retold my story of reading about including
someone that one feel irritated on to embrace
them with Metta.

She where very skeptical of such behavior.
And she is very political correct and want
everybody to be treated in a fair equal way
so I had expected her to be more positive.

Could this be a thing for our Swedish
culture then? Maybe we are skeptical
to things that is presented in an
enthusiastic way.

I know it is prejudice but American
do come through as more accepting
of enthusiastic presentations?

Cheer leading of sports and so on.

Could it be some kind of "nosebo effect"

Being skeptical to American culture
kind of bias us against adopting or
accepting it willingly? A kind of
backlash? "They are trying to sell
as some crap, don't buy it. "
That kind of nosebo reaction.
And opposite to a placebo effect.

I wonder, Mike, if there really is such a thing as Dark Night, or if people are suffering mental breakdown from these deep meditation practices. Myth always surrounds this kind of stuff, and then there is always a bit of truth. I'm glad the scientists are getting in on this so we can get some good studies on what is really happening.

I wonder, Mike, if there really is such a thing as Dark Night, or if people are suffering mental breakdown from these deep meditation practices. Myth always surrounds this kind of stuff, and then there is always a bit of truth. I'm glad the scientists are getting in on this so we can get some good studies on what is really happening.

Yes, I agree. I've probably said this a million times, but I think this is going to be a very exciting century. Neuro feedback will be putting some serious horse power into people's practice. They'll be able to see the imaging and when a spot lights up blue, the right pathways are being forged, the right chemicals are releasing and the default mode network, i.e. some serious SELFING will be going down. If it lights up red: more work, "lets try this" type of approach, "get her back to blue"

Yes, I'm aware this sounds bloodless but these ancient teachings are a gift and they must reach more people on real terms.

I think the Dark Night could be real but it's hard finding any intelligible critical analysis of it because you run into the default shrug of "Hey, self reporting, what can I tell ya?" It sounds probable that one could meditate so intently as to go a little clown-car crazy at some point without it being "part of the path, man."

Catch me in a mood and all this stuff sounds suspect. The Hardcore dharma scene appears like a group of gamer-type people who like the "The Matrix" and think of enlightenment as having taken the blue pill, or the red, which ever one wakes them up to the real "reality." They describe passage from one stage to another as though they were talking about levels in a computer game. "Oh you want third Path? Well, what you need to do is gain Stream Entry, shed five fetters, cycle through second path, shoot the alien that comes out of the space ship on the left side of the screen and boom...you're an aragami!"

On the other hand, my experience is that these are incredibly intelligent and compassionate people who stress trying for one's self and I've personally experienced enough to be convinced that something special happens with dedication to investigating one's sensate reality, i.e. Three Characteristics and developing concentration. And if I do Insight practice and I hit the Dark Night, I know I'll be like "Damn, I wish I was wrong." That's why for now it's samatha all the way baby!

Mike, i am not sure that daniel is on a wrong track. You see i think he may be taking last traces of mysticism out of the enlightenment and meditation process. I mean he and they have analysed it so well that they can tell people how to do it in very ordinary non-religiuos terms. Sure its not going to be quite so special anymore , maybe, but its still pretty interesting and maybe i'm interested even more if i believe its possible to experience such things. Then i can really see for msyelf whether i think the biggest claims of the buddha have any basis, according to my own assessment.

But that's not to say i'd be right when i interpret what i experience as being really what reality is. Cause i'm still not sure about that. I could be misinterpreting my experience. I mean what feels real might not be real, just as happens with people in psychosis.

And for my part, i'm also hoping that i can skip the dark night. I mean i've done therapy so i've already worked through a lot of stuff so i'm hoping that if anything weird starts happening to my emotional state, that i could dismiss it more easily. Well that's what i'd like to think might happen anyway. I mean when i was in therapy, there was a point when i thought i might go mad but of course i didn't. IT is just the intensity of the experience and it can affect ones mental state somewhat too.