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Author Topic: Could someone please explain delusion?
ryno
Grasshopper
Posts: 13
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Post Could someone please explain delusion?
on: August 16, 2012, 18:50
Quote

I get attachment and greed, I get aversion and hate, but the third poison seems to be a mystery to me- I understand the English definition of delusion and I am able to use the word in conversation, my question relates to it's word usage in the practice.

Thanks.

Candol
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 717
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Post Re: Could someone please explain delusion?
on: August 16, 2012, 19:37
Quote

Well its a good question with several nuances in reply. It probably would help to start by knowing what you think it means in the buddhist context.

However i'll give it a shot first off.

First i think its best to realise that closest translation to what the buddha probably meant is ignorance. john Peacock says as much but he thinks many people feel insulted by the word. they shouldn't.

In the buddhist context the basic meaning being referred to by ignorance as in greed aversion and ignorance means ignorance of the teachings of the buddha and ignorance of what the buddha is trying to get people to know. The word delusion is used but even so the meaning intended is exactly the same so i think its best to stick with the right choice of word.

once i heard it said that when someone acts badly it can be put down to ignorance of the dharma. Not just in not knowing about the dharma but in not knowing by experience and firsthand the knowledge that the dharma wants to convey.

for example, when a person is violent or angry towards another its becuase they are ignorant of not self and out interconnectedness. you see? If one were not ignorant; if one truly knew not-self, one would definitely want to restrain any violent or aggressive tendency or maybe not even have any violent or aggressive impulse in the first place.

so that's what's really meant by delusion aka ignorance.

However using the word delusion is also useful. So i use both. I like the word delusion to convey the more mundane aspect of the buddhist path. To not see things correctly but to always be putting our own distorted overlay on the way we see what's going on in the world.

NaturalEnt-
rust
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 275
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Post Re: Could someone please explain delusion?
on: August 16, 2012, 22:43
Quote

ryno, I am a total nobody on this
so take my answer as the wild guess it is.

First a teasing answer. To not know
what Buddhists refers to when they
say somebody is in delusion that is
to be in delusion. Sorry teasing.

Second best answer. The 4NT.
If you fail to see the Four Noble Truth
as the Truth then you are in delusion.

Third wild guess. It could refer to
seeing your false ego self as the true self.

The true self is that there is no self
other than the coming and going of sensation
from the 5 aggregates. That awareness creates
the delusion of a permanent stable self and
to think or feel that as the true self is the
delusion. To be ignorant. But I am most likely
wrong. Buddhists almost always mean very specific
or even very particular technical things with words.

Linda
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 316
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Linda
Post Re: Could someone please explain delusion?
on: August 18, 2012, 14:15
Quote

There are actually at least two sets of words that represent three related issues:

As Candol points out, there's one that includes aversion: attraction (raga), aversion (patigha), ignorance (avijja). There's also one that has greed (lobha), hatred (dosa), and delusion (moha). You can see that we could match these up like this:

greed=attraction
hatred=aversion
ignorance=delusion

But that doesn't actually mean that ignorance is the exact equivalent of delusion. Nor is attraction, necessarily, greed. But greed certainly derives from attraction, just as hatred comes out of aversion, so in this way we can see that delusion is a by-product of ignorance.

Ignorance is ignorance of the reasons for the way so much of what we do results in dukkha. Delusion is the "what we do" that results in dukkha. It is us thinking the world works in a certain way, when it doesn't. More to the point, I think, delusion is pointing out that we think we know how the world works, when we are missing what becomes obvious once it is pointed out to us.

Linda Blanchard
Buddhist History/Pali Nerd

Dana-
Nourie
Administrator
Posts: 434
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Dana Nourie
Post Re: Could someone please explain delusion?
on: August 19, 2012, 10:43
Quote

Linda, this last post is really helpful. Being in the midst of learning math though, I'd see those equal signs as equal. Maybe something like:

greed=>attraction
hatred=>aversion
ignorance=>delusion

Or greed leads to attraction, hatred leads to aversion, and ignorance leads to delusion. Drive might even work well here, greed drives attraction, hatred drives aversion, and ignorance drives delusion.

For people who feel slighted at ignorance, would the word "mistaken" work in it's place. We're often mistaken about what's really going on in a situation and our minds make up incorrect versions of the way we see things.

Dana Nourie
All Around Geek Girl

Linda
Noone Going Nowhere
Posts: 316
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Linda
Post Re: Could someone please explain delusion?
on: August 19, 2012, 12:20
Quote

Yes, "driven by" works great.

Quote from Dana Nourie on August 19, 2012, 10:43
I'd see those equal signs as equal....

I agree. I set it up that way so I could refute myself. : )

Linda Blanchard
Buddhist History/Pali Nerd

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