Discussions

Nothing the Buddha did should "dictate" your behavior. Just because he does or does not do something, doesn't mean you follow suit like a shadow. The Buddha asked us to look at our behavior in terms of intention, action, and consequences.

I don't drink at all, but it has nothing to do with Buddhism. I'm from a family of alcoholics, and sharing their genetics I know the consequences. So I don't do it. I have Buddhist friends who have a drink now and then. The thing with anything we put in our mouths is that there are consequences.

Instead of asking whether or not Buddha drank, ask yourself how it's going to affect you, what is your intent, and what will the consequences be. A lot of people can handle a glass of wine, a bottle of beer just fine, but many can not. You need to understand your own intentions and limitations.

While what the Buddha did can be a guide, don't let him or anyone else dictate your behavior. Even he said to study something, test it out, and understand it in many different ways.

I don't drink to get away from reality, and I would agree that if that is your intention, alcohol should be eliminated. I actually enjoy the taste of bourbon and try to taste every sip I take. It's almost like a mindfulness exercise! There's the alcohol burn, the flavors that come through and then the fading of it all (the 'finish' as they say in bourbon and scotch circles). It's all so temporary. Since this is all done in sips, it becomes easier to monitor (or maybe in Buddhist terms 'to be aware of') the intoxicating effects. Also, your taste buds play a part in the whole experience. A bourbon you enjoyed yesterday, may be just 'eh' today. What changed? You. Impermanence again.

Intention: to taste and enjoy the bourbon
Action: savoring and evaluating every sip
Consequences: My half to one ounce of bourbon has very little effect on me, although I can notice a general 'warming' sensation now that the weather is turning colder. I do not crave bourbon throughout the day and have certainly gone days without it. Studies have not yet definitely discovered the health consequences of moderate alcohol consumption, both sides of the argument can quote findings in their favor.

Hey Tim,
Also being from Kentucky, I understand the attachment to the taste of a good Ky Bourbon! However, after being seriously ill for the past 6 years with pancititis, I've had to give it up. But, you can learn to live without it. Simply substitute another non-alcoholic beverage in its place. Yes, I know, it's hard to do.
Spiritually speaking, like you, as long as you keep your consumption low, I don't have a problem with alcohol. I guess, if someone drinks, there's always that slim possibility of "getting worse" and having a real problem. If you are a tee-totaller, there is never that danger.
My Wife uses bourbon in cakes and pies, sometimes also in some veggies. Adds a very good flavor to many dishes.!!
With Metta, _()_ Larry

Tim, you describe the experience very well. I'm a single malt Scotch guy, and that's exactly how the savoring should be, with each drop. It's why a tiny portion of Lagavulin lasts all night!

Of course, that's a more zen approach: savoring the beauty of the moment. That's a big change from the Theravada view of seeing the pervasive dissatisfaction in every moment, so we can sever attachment and end the rounds of rebirth. For those of us with no particular expectation in the validity of literal rebirth, that justification is muted, but it does still make perfect sense to not attach -- especially with something that could cause "heedlessness".

I'm wondering, is this simply an issue of personal self cultivation? Or, perhaps could setting an example to others be made part of the equation as well? What are the social merits of drinking? Does it help uplift the lives of others? Or does it have more negative implications? Is it simply an issue skillful vs non- skillful drinking?

About 3 years after starting meditation practice I stopped drinking alcohol. I hadn't had any in a long time and then when I tried it again and noticed more closely the effects of the alcohol, I found I didn't really care for it anymore. It detracted from my happiness and concentration. It was a pleasant feeling, but it felt artificial. The effects I get from metta meditation, by contrast are many times greater, become pervade other aspects of life, and bring about more enjoyable and beneficial effects.

But to each their own, as far as I'm concerned. Although not using alcohol is a "precept" I don't advocate blind adherence to it. Rather I would recommend something along the lines of what Tim describes as a mindful approach to the experience: the craving, intention, action, and consequences. Rather than treating it as a "Thou Shalt Not," it can be used, like any other experience, as an opportunity for investigation.

I'm leery of the long-term effects of alcohol on the nervous system, which is one reason why I've never consumed it on a daily basis. My late father always fixed himself a drink when he came home from work and always had a beer with lunch during the years of his retirement. Toward the end of his life,when there was some concern of senility, one of us wondered out loud whether his years of alcohol consumption might have affected his brain. Whether or not there was any truth to that idea, I can't say.

Fortunately, alcohol has never been important to me. I don't drink wine because I never learned to appreciate it, and it would be wasted on me. I don't like liquor. Before I gave up pizza because the doctor advised against too much starch, I liked a beer with pizza, but I don't really miss it.

The evidence is still somewhat preliminary (pluses for heart, minuses for cancer), but on balance it seems as though two drinks a day for a man and one for a woman is healthy. That's not enough to get most people drunk, which is really the only issue as regards ethics.

For ethical reasons, best not to get drunk. For health reasons, best to take alcohol in moderation.

I must say it's refreshing to see links to scientific research on a Buddhist forum, or any Internet form for that matter. I'll look at some of these articles.

I think I should say however, that one thing alcohol is not good for is use as a psychotropic medication. Self-medicating is always a bad idea. If anybody asks me if he thinks that having a drink or two would be good for his nerves, I will flat out tell him no, because there are good, safe alternatives. For those who aren't interested in meditation, research has shown certain lifestyle changes have positive stress reduction effects (The Depression Cure by Stephen Ilardi, PhD).

The book recommended most often for depression by professionals is The Feeling Good Handbook by David D Burns, M.D. It explains cognitive therapy and serves as a treatment for many people with mild to moderate depression, according to studies reviewed in Handbook of Self Help Therapies.

Kirk, I'm glad to hear you get relief from a glass of wine. A glass of wine a day is not going to hurt your health, and there have been studies that show wine has benefits if it's only a glass a day. So if it calms the tremor, I say go for it.

You mention mudras. Those aren't Buddhist. Buddha never did mudras. I'm not sure if that crept into Buddhism via Hinduism or Yoga. I never understood the point of them. Like you I put my hands in my lap, sometimes backsides down if my hands are warm, and sometimes I hold my hands together. What matters is that you're comfortable.

I'm curious if you've ever used your tremor as a focal point, focus on the tremor instead of the breath, without judgement, just paying attention to the tremors themselves?

I've done this with pain and found it hugely useful, not in alleviating pain but seeing the nature of pain, realizing it's simply another body sensation, that it moves and shifts, and then thankfully, eventually disappears. For my crushed foot, the pain never completely disappears and it's been 8 years, but I get fascinated at how it changes.

I believe that's called the 'cosmic mudra'. I don't know its origins and hope someone else is more informed. But it does go way back: you can find it on stone representations of the Buddha from Gandhara, 1st-2nd c. CE, which are some of the very earliest representational Buddhist sculptures. (Pre-Gandharan sculptures tended not to represent the Buddha's form, but rather things like his footprints).

Well, Joseph, here's my thoughts on that. Whenever you start mixing motivations, things can get messed up. For example, if I buy cheaper bourbon in order to serve a more compassionate purpose but really don't like the taste as much, why am I drinking it at all?

That being said, most of my bourbons are pretty reasonably priced ($20 to $25, which comes out to about $1 to $2 a drink for me). Although who am I to deny my wife the pleasure of surprising me with a 20 year old bottle of Pappy Van Winkle!

Allen, that's a legitimate point. Would I drink bourbon if it had no psychotropic effects? I don't know, but could you say the same about coffee? Fruit juice contains a lot of sugar, are we drinking for the glycemic effect? Petting dogs releases oxytocin, is that why I pet them? (And there are a LOT of dogs in my life right now, maybe that's my real psychotropic issue?) So let me rephrase: I don't drink to get very far away from reality.

There's always a danger in becoming Evangelical once you're an ex-addict, so I am mindful of that at least.

I have tried non-alcoholic wine (yuk), although non-alcoholic beer and lager aren't too bad - but you wouldn't want more than a refreshing cold can of the stuff, not the 8 pints of old. Apparently there IS non-alcoholic whisky on the market, at some ludicrous price like sixty UK pounds a bottle (which is even MORE in USD). I haven't tried the whisky. I think it's on sale mainly in Los Angeles and Japan, for some odd reasons.

You're right, of course, in that mindfulness is the key. I shan't stroke my cat too much, to avoid the danger of passing into unconsciousness.

A.